Rough translation of a posting on Athens indymedia, the day after a riot cop was shot in Eksarhia, Athens. The text below is important as it seems to reflect a sentiment shared with the majority of the people in the anarchist, and the wider antagonist social movement in the country: The greek state seems to be pulling out some of its oldest and dirtiest tricks in order to go, once again, on the offensive. Luckily, our movement does have one of the most valuable assets – collective memory. In the US they called it COINTELPRO, in Italy it was the strategy of tension, over here it is lonely gunmen shooting from (but really: shooting at) the very spaces we are trying to defend. We don’t forget, we don’t forgive, we won’t be intimidated…
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On the dawn of 5/1/08, at around 3 a.m, a riot police unit was shot at while guarding the ministry of culture in the Eksarhia district of Athens. They speak of more than 20 bullet shells and a hand grenade. The cop injured, they say, was saved only thanks to his mobile phone, which slowed down the bullet that hit him in the chest.
Our initial thought is that any individual that is part of our movement, no matter how enraged or in support of urban guerilla tactics they might be, would not chose the area of Eksarhia (literally under police occupation for the past few days) in order to launch an attack of this kind and manage to escape safely.
Therefore, we cannot consider coincidental the fact that mass media, politicians and their lackeys have been building up an atmosphere where some dynamic revenge action against the cops was imminent. We cannot rule out, of course, the possibility that such incidents could happen – but we are not foolish enough to believe that they would take place in Eksarhia, or in the case of the earlier incident (-the shooting against the police van a few days earlier – trans.) in the university campus of Zografou.
The state, via its mouthpiece media was preparing public opinion for some ‘imminent’ action against the police. The choice of the place of the attack (the ministry of culture in Eksarhia) somehow spoiled their recipe: An attack in such a heavily surveilled urban area clearly points at attackers that can only be directly linked to the state itself.
It goes without saying that these people would have no hesitation whatsoever to shoot one of their own – there’s no need for a second thought on that: Life means nothing to them.
Their action shows that they are trying to neutralise the climate for the shooting, in cold blood, of Alexis Grigoropoulos, and to create once again some sympathy for the police – who at the moment are spat at on the streets by pretty much everyone for anything they do. They are trying to create, at the same time, an atmosphere of violence and terrorism for all the rest who resist in any possible way.
The choice of Eksarhia, an area that no armed revolutionary group would ever chose under the given circumstances, builds all the necessary associations in the mind of the society; it frees the hands of cops and judges for violence and convictions against the social whole… this always in the face of the pending unemployment and financial crises.
Already there have been 75 detentions, many police attacks against residents and passers-by in Eksarhia, while there is also information on house raids – how handy for them.
There are strange days coming; the government has lost control a while ago and is now launching a full-scale violence, some violence in which it has a near-monopoly.
A disproportionate violence that faces stones and molotovs and responds with tons of chemical gases, bullets (plastic and regular), attacks of the wild revolted against fully equipped state units with military training.
The pre-planned right turn of the government (not that it wasn’t right-wing already, but having seen its conservative core moving to the far-right, it further hardens its rhetoric and repression tactics) can only be confronted with mass and unitary demonstrations and events against state terror. With answers and clashes on the streets; with mass barricades. With a political word that will talk of the people and their needs; of how they are masters of themselves, how they need to move away from the authoritarian leadership of political parties which ignore the pressing demand for liberation from the confines of the state, of homelands and capitalism.
Without rushed-up actions yet with our gaze in the immediate future, we need to produce ideas and proposals through our public assemblies so that the self-organisation of the people from below can become visible, viable and possible -precisely in the ways many of us witnessed during the days of the December revolt.
There is no other way – else, they’ll take us down, one after the other.
As they’ve proved one more time, they are ruthless.
111 Comments
could you point to the original text in greek from athens IMC? (can’t find it)
thanks
http://athens.indymedia.org/front.php3?lang=el&article_id=961789
I agree with the comrades who wrote this article, in spite of the fact that I consider the shooting of cops a legitimate action under the circumstances. Revolutionary violence must reach a point when it will have to upgrade its infrastructure and the technical means at its disposal, if it is to overcome the superior military capabilities of the repressive apparatus of the state. However, such urban guerrilla actions must take place in isolation from demonstrations and other forms of mass struggle, in order to avoid bringing any harm to those who participate in such events. As for the pressing need for organization, I think that it is time for anarchists everywhere to adopt the ideas outlined in the inclusive democracy project, which contains the blueprint for a future anarchical society based on the principles of direct political, economic, social and ecological democracy. The work of inclusive democracy thinkers is in my mind, the only model for an anarchist organization of society which addresses our contemporary problems and needs. Such a model is neither absolute, nor immutable. It simply lays out the necessary institutional preconditions for the complete elimination of authoritarian relations from organized social life. As it considers that popular assemblies are the ultimate source of authority in a genuinely democratic society, it rests with the assemblies themselves to ratify such a novel social arrangement, to overrule it altoghether, or to modify certain aspects as they see fit. But in my view, the confederal scheme proposed by inclusive democracy must be expounded as an alternative form of social organization by anarchists everywhere. Otherwise, the movement will eventually subside and the people will return to their habitual practices, in want of a better solution.
A direct armed confrontation with the state will be a bloodbath for any movement. What can only be hoped for is the generalisation of the struggle to deep within the social fabric of society. Armed Urban Guerrilla warfare will reproduce the hierarchical and spectucalar nature of society with a small hand-ful acting as vanguard whilst the rest of the movement watches and spectates.
I will be interested to read the “ideas outlined in the inclusive democracy project”. do you have a web link?
The idea that we can overthrow any government with guns, at this point, is idle. If an armed confrontation is to take place, we will first need the support of a large part of the soldiers aswell. Otherwise, without guns, without training, we will be doomed.
bla bla bla
and then Osama Bin Laden will come with his Boeing and he will crush to Greece parliament.And then will American army come to help greece nation couse there is not democraty……..
FUCKING OFFICIAL NEWS
CIA agents and undercovered policemans are shoting around!!!!!!
Show them no FEAR comerades!!!!
A quick comment – because I have to rush there (no doubt there will be updates later). IMC reports that a small, but very important cultural center in Exarchia is under siege by the riot police, as the random “house raids” continue. Things degenerate quickly here, and your solidarity is needed…
An Aginter Press document, titled “Our Political Activity,” was discovered at the end of 1974 and described the use of pseudo-operations and the involvement in the strategy of tension:
“Our belief is that the first phase of political activity ought to be to create the conditions favouring the installation of chaos in all of the regime’s structures. .. In our view the first move we should make is to destroy the structure of the democratic state under the cover of Communist and pro-Chinese activities. .. Moreover, we have people who have infiltrated these groups and obviously we will have to tailor our actions to the ethos of the milieu — propaganda and action of a sort which will seem to have emanated from our Communist adversaries. .. [These operations] will create a feeling of hostility towards those who threaten the peace of each and every nation. [i.e. Communists]”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aginter_Press
i heard there are mass protests programmed for friday, can anyone on the ground confirm?
Indeed I can confirm that the student movement is programmed to resume its mass protests on Friday. Some people predict that due to the tension there will be a low turnout, but I have faith in the defiant spirit of the Greek people and their refusal to succumb to the climate of fear systematically cultivated by authorities.
The web link for Inclusive democracy is http://www.inclusivedemocracy.org/fotopoulos/.
I must stress that the inclusive democracy approach espouses a peaceful strategy for the transition to a stateless society. It only accepts violence, to the extent that it is used as a necessary measure of self-defense against state attacks on the movement. The mass character of any such counter-violence is another precondition.
On my part, I do consider the armed attacks on cops as morally justifiable, but I also believe that this action was counterproductive in the political sense. Of course, I do not believe that a “people’s war” is the correct method to overthrow the system. As a matter of fact, I reject this notion for a number of reasons: 1) To conduct a war you need a military apparatus based on command structures and hierarchical relations within the organization, which makes the development of a mass democratic conscience virtually impossible, 2) The conquest of power by a vanguard minority will never lead to a revolutionary transformation “from below”, but can only result to forced social engineering from the top, 3)armed groups tend to operate in isolation from the mass movement and 4) the state will always have the advantage when it comes to a purely military confrontation.
I defended the morality of the armed action, not its political results and efficacy as a method of bringing about change.
However, I do believe that if we accept that resistance to physical coercion exercised by the state will be necessary at some stage of the revolutionary process, we need to start thinking about what forms and types of mass counter-violence the movement must adopt to be able to defend itself and the type of organized force needed to carry out such operations.
I hope you ppl wear them down with that high spirit of yours!
Also i found this link:
http://www.inclusivedemocracy.org/
But unfortunately theres no forum or some other kind of collective space for debate connected to their homepage … If anybody finds something like that iam very interested!
rojinegro, it’s true that there are mass protests programmed for friday – these are the student (high school&university) demos that have been called for before christmas. Obviously, with this turn of events, it’ll be really interesting to see what happens…
nonviolent organization and civil disobedience is always the best tactic.
Gandhi in British occupied India & Martin Luther King Jr. in racist oppressive USA both faced much more ruthless and formidable power structures than the current Greek regime. They succeeded with integrity, hard work and perseverance that did not alienate and anger others. it was militant, but compassionate and inclusive.
study history. see what movements have worked and which ones have only perpetuated a cascade of reactive and oppressive regimes. real lasting progress comes slowly through acceptance, hard work and compromise.
Nonviolence only works for a while. Gandhi en King were authoritarians who wanted to see their adherents accepted by the leading authorities of that time. The greek rebels seek exactly the opposite, they seek to abolish the leading authorities. They are revolutionaires, not reformists.
Also, just to complete reports over here: Belgian press is headlining “anarchists shoot riot cop”. Ofcourse, none of those so called journalists did more than take the Associated Press-reports and make them a bit more sensational. Pure gossip. If this is our level of press, I wonder why I still pursue such a career.
Under certain conditions, I can accept non-violence as a tactic, but under no circumstances can I regard non-violence as an absolute, equally valid for all situations.
Tell me, what good would non-violence be against the Nazis, or racist Israel who is currently massacring Palestinians in Gaza?
You should lend your sympathies on the basis of the historical injusticies and oppression suffered by a nation, not by separating oppressed actors into violent and non-violent ones.
Also, maybe you should study history more carefully. Then you might realize that for every successful leader of a nonviolent movement, there was a radical violent movement to which he owes his success. Martin Luther King was successful because the white establishment feared the violent militants of black power. They considered King the lesser of two evils and rightly so, because, in spite of his successes, the constitutional recognition of formal civil rights for african-americans did not bring about any real changes to their socially disadvantaged situation. They still remain a social underclass due to the preservation of racist institutional structures which condemn african-americans as a people to economic and political enslavement. A problem which Doctor King’s reformist strategy and tactics failed to address. In spite of having the right to vote, they seldomly choose to exercise it and this should tell us something about the limits of nonviolence as a strategy of empowerment. The same applies to Gandhi’s struggle against the British. If it wasn’t for Nehru and his violent tactics, Gandhi would have been a utopian still expecting to induce the British into ceding independence to the Indians due to their guilt and remorse for the evil they had done!
I agree with Pieter. A historical link exists uniting nonviolence with reformism, on the one hand, and violence and radicalism on the other. This is not by chance. King never wanted to abolish the state. He wanted to be accepted as an equal memeber of the ruling elite and this is why in the end the elites chose to nominally satisfy some of his demands. Black power on the other hand, sought to bring about a revolution and completely abolish the racist power structure. Accpeting the reformist demands of the civil rights movement, was merely another way of averting the possibility for a real revolution, of the type expounded by the Black Panthers and other black power groups, who sought to abolish the state and bring about a completely new social order.
I disagree with you URBANO. I think nonviolence can lead to an abolishment of the state. However, it takes a long time to work. The key point is education. Teach a person that his views of the world are false regarding his own ego and his “sense world” and once understood he will have an insight that doesn’t allow him to continue the way he lived. You have to change each individual person otherwise others will come that want power, fame, money and all the rest of the things that are connected with the ego and “sense world”.
Good analysis from the brainless point of view. Anarchy, as in no laws? Anarchists only operate in Greece because we have a state which tolerates them, and often uses them for its own gain.
Zero ideology, zero focus…they can tag on to anyone and anything. Perhaps they read some Bakounin, illustrated in colour since the text would be too challenging for their deformed and defficient crania.
You seem very convinced about who shot that riot cop yesterday. Do you also know who shot Kennedy and where the hell Elvis is – he owes me money…
Brainless zombies, Anarchists. Only difference between you and the established order (The State) is that they are in and you are out. Do something productive = original for once in your lives. Oh, that takes brains I forgot!
Fontas Varidakis are you a cop??
Andre,
Have you ever had the pleasure to talk to a full-blooded nationalist? I have. I can assure you, whatever education you give such types, it goes in one side and leaves the other. Some people simply will never be convinced about our ideas, especially ultra-nationalists, because their viewpoint is exactly that the State is a glorious thing and even condone the violence it executes. David Meltzer wrote a good bit about that stance in Arguments for and against.
Fontas,
Creative you say? Why are anarchists often so involved in culture then? Why do grassroot movements display such brilliant creativity in breaking through everyday normality (say, as in Reclaim the Streets or the recent die-in of AATW in Israel)?
Brainless you say? Why then were Bakunin and Kropotkin anarchists, were they brainless? How about Chomsky, widely regarded as one of the greatest modern thinkers: anarchist? The Tarnac 9, all highly educated. Uri Gordon got a doctorate aswell. And that’s just to show you some examples of those who displayed brains at school, there’s a lot of them who are very street-wise aswell.
Think about that next time you go insulting a whole ideology. Especially if you’re not informed about them and clearly bored (heck, why would you even visit this blog if you think anarchists are brainless?)
Second ANDRE partially to the extend that in the long run education is key. Yet it is like PIETER stated an illusion to get rid of ignorance altogether, just look at their intellectually challenged goons policing the streets and ain’t it obvious to apprehend that there will always be narrow minded people to back their retarded ideologies over the barrel of a gun who won’t stop at nothing you know? I anxiously wonder, considering where the world is now, with all it’s misplaced sentiments, social disagreements, environmental problems, international crisis, social discrimination, corrupted leadership, and what not…. how remotely distant the present Babylonian pandemonium seems from the solutions that we ideally advocate. And that will potentially enable us to rise up in numbers large enough to topple a worldwide system of oppression that is ever perfecting it means of subjugation, evidently entertaining no scruples whatsoever to utilize any instrument necessary. Today we might still enjoy to utilize the communication of the internet, in order to influence the public opinion, make us come together, and coordinate actions. For as long as the democratic farce can sedate the majority, the NWO will still hide behind the facade of a semi fascistic democracy that tolerates an anarchistic movement, but watch what they are capable of when they really start losing the control. There’s a host of You Tube video’s on FEMA preparing concentration camps in the U.S. you might want to check out to get an pretty gruesome picture of what we’re up against here. Don’t get me wrong, I also reckon that the information war must be the revolution’s primary agenda. I am only afraid that in the end TPTB won’t just peacefully surrender their power without a fight. Persisting in asymmetric moral objections may be profitable for now as there are still some democratic values to exploit. Therefore I reckon armed resistance is still premature and even counterproductive to the priority of spreading information for expanding the public awareness & willingness to participate. Then again although also cautious of the danger to end up morally rigid as our adversaries, it seems however realistically unavoidable to prepare ourselves for the very probable likelihood of ensuring our peace, freedom, & independence, by taking up arms in the very near future. .
As for Fontas Varidakis you make no sense at all. But I am sure that according the reversed psychology by which you project your own state of mind unto other people my inability to grasp any of it, will probably be devoted to an alleged brainless incapacitation on my part.
All in all a perfect example of the inextinguishable nature of stupidity.
Antifa and Pieter, let me answer some of your points.
First of all I am not a cop, though I sympathise with the Greek cops because they are always on the spotlight byt the Media and the public; Catch 22, anything they do is wrong.
Also, to Pieter: you have made good arguments and obviously know your stuff. You are in the minority my friend.
Your last sentence refers to me insulting ‘an ideology’? Which exactly is that, since all so-called anarchists I have ever discussed with have told me different versions of what they term Anarchy (no authorities/no state), often conflicting.
- Noam Chomsky is one of my favourites but I did not know he is an ‘anarchist’…since when? Did you baptise him so? He, my friend, speaks with arguments and hence cannot be an anarchist…mutually exclusive sets.
- The societies espoused by Bakunin et al. have never been applied because they can only exist in theory, in other words utopias.
- I am not an ultra-nationalist and abhor these people, just as I abhor all ultras, left-, right-wing and so-called anarchists.
- Ak your anarchist friends in Greece why they did not burn or loot private property on my island (Crete). Because the owners would get back to them with Kalashnikovs, and then not even the Police would save their anarchist lilly asses. That’s right; these brave men only attack en masse, after dark, against unguarded banks, etc. So much for ideology.
- Anarchists in Greece show by their very actions why their utopian society would be an apocalyptic scenario. You can sue the state and the Police, but can you sue the anarchists for your burned out/looted property? Where do you go, to the Anarchist Ministry of Compensation?
- OK let us have Anarchy. Who will save you two when I come and burn you alive? The state? The police? Who exactly? Because I will come, as the bigger and superior man. I will call it ‘ideology’ of course.
- If you really want to do something worthwhile which makes an impact, enact the final scene from Fight Club. That takes guts and @@, not throwing a few Molotovs at riot cops or shooting at them from a distance and them sending a letter to the media.
Do not speak about ideology if you do not know the meaning of the word (Idea). Yes, destroying is always easier than creating but then do not claim to be some new Messiahs. You are doing nothing new.
Also…I came across his website by accident, throug a link from one of the mainstream news channels.
I like exposing the ideological nudity of all the Fas, Anti-fas and Anti-Anti-fas when I want to kill some time, it’s fun and nothing personal.
Don’t feed the troll Fontas, he is obviously to clever for us.
Still not making any sense, Fonta what is your point, that anarchy is imperfect?
Or that we’re not die hard anarchists?
I think your missing the angle here that no system is perfect, which is hence beside the point.
What is relevant here is the level of corruptness, inhumanity & equality in a society.
A pyramid structured hierarchy & social cohesion is inherently unequal, in practice corrupt to the bone, and it’s ramifications on a planetary level are practically worse than Hitler’s gas chambers. And you think you can make a reasonable case to draw our honorable intentions into question, with as an argument some property damage?
You know, you should enlist in the Greek Police Force, they need stupid ass people as yourself and we anarchists love to throw our bricks unto imbecile morons like you too.
Meet Fondas! He likes Kalashnikov-totting Cretans – but he abhors stone-throwing 16-year olds! He likes Chomsky – who wrote that “at every stage of history our concern must be to dismantle those forms of authority and oppression that survive from an era when they might have been justified in terms of the need for security or survival or economic development, but that now contribute to—rather than alleviate—material and cultural deficit ” (Notes on anarchism) – but he LOVES the police, and likes to EXPOSE stupid people like us. And above all, he likes ARGUMENTS. Now you all know what we are dealing with here in Greece…
Fontas, I may disagree with you on some points, but I will disagree with those who say you are stupid. You are obviously not stupid, just of a different opinion, and you seem to be annoyed at any type of extremism.
Dear Leah, thank you for adding some female logic and perspective into this!
Deconstruction time:
- I refer to ‘anarchists’ in the contect of the original article and the recent riots, i.e. mainly young people with too much testosterone and a deficit in brain cells. The kind of people who see wealth and instead of changing the system from the inside or using concrete arguments, choose to destroy the lives of their fellow citizens. I never put Chomsky in the same category, as he has never thrown a rock or Molotov at anyone (as far as I know, could be wrong). Chomsky carries out peaceful protest against the system, by not paying tax, etc. See the difference here? Also, he advocates anarcho-syndicalism AFAIK, which is indeed a valid ideology and very close to Communism (workers managing the means of production, no wages, etc.). Again, NOT the same as burning and looting.
- I never said I ‘love’ the Police, all I did was to give a scenario where the very same idiots who claim to be anarchists need the Police for their own survival. This would be in the case where I (stronger) impose myself on the other (Weaker). AFAIK, no anarchist theory has ever explained how post-authority society would be regulated while accounting for man’s primitive instincts. Again, so-called anarchists remind everyone with a TV what these instincts are and why such systems will always remain theoretical.
- I am part of the system and have a good job. However, I do not agree with this system and do not believe it is sustainable into the future. I will do all I can to change it, but from within and by respecting other people’s opinions and property.
- Gun-totting Cretans yes, all the way. Spanner in the works for the ideological kids full of testosterone but so be it…someone has to teach them respect for the other.
Peace!
Respect for people’s property is a major issue I think. No one is going to be happy or support any cause if something they’ve toiled to create is being brought down. Not every person who wants change is a hardcore revolutionary – they are not all prepared to give up everything just for reforms. Not everyone is an extremist.
Fontas if you think you could impose authority in an anarchist society, you obviously fail to grasp anarchist’s (more precisely anarcho-communist) basic principles. There is no way liberated people would let anyone take this freedom they fought so hard to achieve.
Just so you know, but Chomsky is an anarchist. You may go read up his non-bestselling work and his interviews with libcom.
OK -
:p Wasn’t really directed at you. Also, I had read over your pretty good summary of Chomsky’s stance on anarchism. Sorry for that
…now I am completely deconstructed.
1. The word “anarchist” has a meaning, Fontas. Open the dictionary, if you do not know it.
2. Looters, in the present context (Fontas’ words) may be right-wingers and plain-uniform police. There are videos about that, which have been submitted to the Greek Parliament. Utube is full of them. You should follow the news more closely, mr. professional. Or, they might be impoverished, marginalised people, in a country where 1 in 4 live below the poverty line, according to a well-known anarchist organisation called Eurostat.
2. We have a neuroscientist among us! He loves the word “brainless”, and he counts brain cells (just like some people count sheep, after the 8 o’ clock news). He thinks that 16 year-olds that stole a pair of sunglasses are brainless, but he has nothing to say about an agent of the state who killed for kicks an innocent student. (Oh I forgot – the poor Epameinondas was facing a “Catch 22″ situation).
3. Between me and you, patrioti, you do not understand shit about deconstruction. (For starters, Derrida thought that deconstruction was primarily anti-authoritarian). Why don’t you deconstruct the official discourse about Alexis – a “hardened rioter” according the police? Why don’t you deconstruct the countless police murders – starting from the assassination of I. Koumis and S. Kanelopoulou in the tragic 1980 Athens Polytechnic march, a crime that went unpunished? Why don’t you tell our foreign friends that you are living in one of the most corrupt western states (according to well-known subversive groups called OECD and Transparency International)? Why don’t you deconstruct the preventive arrests, the beatings, the curious deaths of immigrants in Athens (remniscent of El Salvador in the 80’s, if you know what we are talking about), the recent court decision about the “zardiniera” incident – a Rodney King-style beating, fully documented and filmed,the main responsible of which was punished essentially with a…fine of 5500 euros? Have you counted the brain cells of those responsible for the “Siemens” and “Vatopedio” scandals – who ripped off millions from tax-paying, god-fearing, law-abiding citizens like you? Have YOU sued the state? This is a country where people might go to jail for owing money to the state, for f_’s shake – see a recent Supreme Court decision – and Fontas worries about the testosterone levels…Stay tuned patrioti. We will keep the 8 o’ cloc news full. Since you have not read any Chomski or Derrida, this might be interesting for you…
Enough said. This is not a blog for delusional ignoramuses. This s a blog for people who feel solidarity with protesting Greeks, and want to make sense of the ongoing, volatile situation, which might be relevant for their societies. I will not go on.
Guys and gals, I know Chomsky has written a lot on anarchism BUT not the kind practised on the streets of Athens. Although I agree with him on principle about the state, US hegemony, etc., he does tend to be extreme sometimes in his definition of oppression.
Go to Youtube and check out a series of 3 smashimg videos on the film They Live. They are meant to be critiques of the film but really a lot more than that. Search for ‘They Live’ and you will find them.
Check this out also, found it last week:
http://www.conspiracyplanet.com/
My endgame is really the same as yours, probably more extreme in fact. Think Fight Club and the final scene, including all the preparation up to it.
The problem is that the so-called anarchists and anti-capitalists in Greece and elsewhere are too obvious and too crude in their approach. This makes it very easy for anyone to control and detain them, no problem. In fact, do not be surprised if Guantanamo is in future put to new use for this new wave of anti-capitalists…I can easily see that happening.
More specifically, in Greece today we see a useless state (but we already knew that) and an even more useless and unguided anarchist ‘movement’. If you look at both sides and consider that many of those anarchists will be tomorrow’s politicians, you can easily see why this country is doomed. Unless they remain anarchists all their life…but then again, not everyone can be Chomsky and give sell-out lectures. Even he writes and publishes books.
Anyway, if anyone of you would like to have a discussion over a frappe drop me a line. I have given my name and so you can see I have nothing to hide.
Fontas Varidakis, you said no riots and capitalist property smashing happened in “your” island, Creta?
Here ’s a present for you babe. All scenes come from Heraclio and Chania, major cities of Creta.
Enjoy December 2008 in your homeland and take your time to mourn for the poor unguarded banks and the poor armed murdering defenseless cops:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X37pRWoPopU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKA42XBSh0Q
Bravo well spoken phile. Woke up today, read his comments and felt immediately urged to deconstruct myself. But you beat me to the punch in such pointed pen that left me incapable to excel and add anything useful to your comment. And yeah you’re probably just as right to let him be in his own mixed up litlle mind.
Say, any newsworthy developments on the situation in the Exarchia?
G2000…
Comparing Greece today to 80s El Salvador is hardly an argument for anything…how many people have Greek Police shot in the past 20 years? How many have they ‘dissapeared’? You may feel justified in your ’struggle’ by convincing yourself that you live in in El Salvador, Cambodia, North Korea, etc. Greece is hardly that, so wake up patrioti.
If you want to fight oppression dude, go to Pnom Penh and do it there, not in Eksarhia or any oter part of a European capital where you know that the Police will not dare touch you for fear of the cameras.
I have been to North Korea and Russia, and maybe you should do too instead of reading all those books. Get a taste of genuine authoritarian regime and play the big boy there. If you have it in you…everything elese is theory. Problem with Greece: too much theory, and the action (when it comes) is even more stupid and senseless.
Ok, let us assume that Epameinondas really was a member of Golden Dawn and aimed to shoot that kid in cold blood. Where you there? Was I there? No, so let justice take its course. If he is found guilty, he will be sentenced and imprisoned. Who are you to pass judgment on anyone?
Problem -> Solution. Molotov -> Arrest and worse. In most countries, someone aiming a Molotov at a cop is a potential murderer at least, and a terrorist at most. In Greece, we call them ‘hot-blooded kids’ full of pure ideological anxiety.
Go to Israel and aim Molotovs at Police G2000, go to Turkey and do it, to Russia. But also go to Western states like Denmark and the UK. Tolerated? Hot-blooded? Media on your side? Public on your side? Think again…
In Greece we unfortunately have certain ancient Greek mythology which is rich and varied, and also our modern political mythology. A fable of the latter is that a bunch of students and workers overthrew the military junta by occupying the NTUA in November 1973. The fact (as accepted by all modern historians) that the regime actually fell a year later and due to the Cyprus invasion is brushed under the memory carpet. This fable gives an excuse to the state to keep the asylum at all schools and universities, preventing entry to police without the DA’s permission. This status quo suits G200 and his chums as they can come and go as they please, destroy the place (oh but education is under-funded in Greece), launch cowardly attacks on police coaches and then leave out the back door at night like the brave commandos they are.
Be good and be bad, just be original and stop quoting people far more clever and original than you will ever be. Any muppet can quote, even my 5 y.o. nephew.
Anyone?
A couple of comments above you blame the kids for knowing shit about theory and ideology. Now you blame them for being too theoretical.
Sorry mate, that’s a goal I simply had to score.
Pieter I give you that, you sound like a nice guy
By the way this is way too fun!
Believe me, I often dream of a better world for everyone but NOT as it is done in Greece and other idiotic countries. This is the reason I am out and living in the UK. The system here may not be perfect but at least it works for X% of the population.
I am a Capitalist with a soft anarchist centre and perhaps I am waiting for my turn. I can give examples of how I have made a difference to the companies I work for, and how I have improved society in my own little way.
Can G2000 et al. give such examples? Are they even real anarchists, or do they have a 9-5 job which buys their Molotov and Bloody mary cocktails? Or worse still…do Mommy and Daddy buy it for them? Do they still live with their parents? Ideologia anyone?
Hey Pieter! Why your webcast is not working?
heard that there were 4 attacks tonight, is there any more info on this?
Varidakis is lying on purpose.
Schools in greece have no asylum. Only universities.
You see, what hurts the “anarcho”capitalist Varidakis is that thousands of school students (aged 13-17) attacked without any instructions by anybody, the police stations all over Greece, and also without asylums and masks. under the morning sun!
Don’t cry for us Varidakis, but we, the greek anarchists, were miles and miles behind the school students… still trying to catch our breaths
Nikolas nice try but no cookie.
Hooligans in Hania damages banks and ATMs and burned the Citizens’ Advice Bureau at Dikastiria Square – no doubt a very heavy political statement with global repercussions.
No private property (as in shops, small businesses, etc.) as far as I know was damaged in Hania. I even know one shop just outside the city where 3 guys tried to smash the windows (they smashed one window). Those ‘anarchists’ ended up in the sea with broken legs and arms. I have no photos, sorry and the police did not do this either, it was normal people.
I also have relatives of school age in both Athens and Crete and believe me, the spontaneous demos were trigerred by sms. Greeks will not get off their butt as easily as you think, especially if they might break a nail or end up in prison or worse, in the sea.
My lasting memory of the ‘bravado’ typical of these hooligans is of a young guy carried off by police after he threw missiles at them outside the Xmas tree at Syntagma Square. He kept shouting ‘I only threw a potato’, and no doubt later on called his mommy and lawyer while crying for missing his coffee appointment and pedicure.
This is unfortunately the sad reality, sissies with no balls.
I am not anarcho-capitalist either, I have my own individual thoughts and beliefs…sometimes on the left, sometimes on the right. Perhaps you cannot visualise the concept of a unique individual since ‘anarchists’ in Greece go in packs and all say the same bullshit they learned from books and their mates while having coffee.
Just think for a second and then come and tell me that you are not part of the system…rather, the anti-system but a system nevertheless.
I do not cry for anyone and believe that every country/nation have the politicians they deserve. Same in Greece, we have the idiots we deserve elected by the idiots that we are and antagonised by the idiot hooligans like Nikolas.
Alexander, what do you mean by webcast? If you mean my blog, I was to lazy to fill it in since isn’t a required field :p Should be working again now (if that is ofcourse what you refered too, it wasn’t entirely clear)
Pieter, i mean
http://mfile.akamai.com/61609/live/reflector:50061.asx?prop=e
И да прибудет с нами сила.
What I’m missing is thought on how to find and deploy the technical skills needed to sustain a society; how to mend roads, prune trees, clear drains, collect refuse, maintain sewers, supply clean water, replace broken street lights, ensure food supplies, manage waste disposal, provide and distribute electricity and gas, arrange burials and cremations, provide health care and accident and emergency services, ensure building safety, look after animals, regularise slaughter houses, preserve and store food, sweep up leaves and litter, run nurseries, schools and higher education, handle flight control, direct traffic, make clothes and distribute them, provide TV and latte and so on, print sexy pictures of the Greek landscape to attract tourists….or is all that going to ,,, er … sort of stop
Simon Baddeley as in
Hon. Lecturer at Birmingham University and Associate of the Institute of Local Government Studies
s.j.baddeley@bham.ac.uk ?
Nice try yet a little transparent Fontas Varidakis.
I give you that you blow an incitive wind into this forum, and as long as you talk sensible, objectively & respectfully, I wouldn’t see anything wrong with turning a blind eye to your obviously, at this site quite irregular, conformist political orientation. I mean, I believe myself to be an open-minded person and I am always willing to lend an ear in order to cross reference, look into, and evaluate any discrepant position.
Nevertheless some of your remarks hereunto were way out off line pal, all in all totally indifferent of sensibility, objectivity & respect. You started out grandly with prizing creative thinking, but honestly all throughout, you vented nothing more than common cliche’s & stereotypical analyses. Let alone how you pathetically imposed impersonating as somebody else, too hackneyed to imagine a fictive name.
Please be more inventive, less bias, and don’t lose yourself in circling in the narrow alley ways of small time thinking if you may decide to follow on with yet another one of your disturbed posts. Try to be honest and rationalize in all fairness. As a Greek you should recognize that honesty is the founding power at bedrock to any philosophical evolution, opposed to being untrue, unauthentic or unethical which means inexorably a suffocation of growth in reaching full potential.
If you really have but any intention to become acquainted with our cause, (which I am afraid you don’t) I sense that you may be too fine tuned in, frantically micro managing irrelevant details, that entirely miss out on capturing the big picture here. As I detect that your judgement relies on an incomplete set of facts, before raising any more uneducated arguments, maybe you should check out these various links first and then come again on the British Empire which you persist is not so bad.
http://quaylargo.com/rkm/ND/mar96NWODoublespeak.shtml
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgcdRCWEt4Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQblW_8T2kU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6SjxpVi7H8&feature=PlayList&p=B871704A0230300B&playnext=1&index=19
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slb84eIRY_8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cm0VF76h5gM
Now if this material does not sufficiently reason with your morality. All I can do hence is empathize with the manifest dysfunctional incapacity of your apparently failing Greek intellect unable to descry that it is in fact an act of heroism in our times to face off and taunt the authority of this flagrant social indignity on the streets and to revolt with stick & stones against an almighty army brandishing an arsenal of weaponry. And not vice versa.
I ain’t saying there’s wrong or right, but historically speaking, being the underdog, in this case fighting against the morally corrupt insanity exerted by the oppressive tyranny of a select few who sustain this economically driven caricature of an alleged modern society for nothing but their own insatiable greed
In comparison to the obedient role of the disconnected pallor android clerk, critically gagged & blindfolded from the truth, submissively serving the fat corporate masters and gratuitously mimicking their senseless narcissistic attitude, all the while (indeed yourself) sissified duping your conscience with unrealistic improvident & trite illusions to change the organization from within.
I reckon measured on a historical reference the equation does shift the ethical balance slightly to the disadvantage of your petty egotistical persuasions and in favor of the all the way to freedom committed revolutionary movement.
Naturally if you feel uncomfortable with that reckoning I will be pleased to hear from you and even take your discontent into serious account, yet I wonder to reverse your own logic against you, if so many things unsettle you, then say why don’t you file any of your grievances against the Greek, English of whatever government? Or is it maybe because you preempt such complain will be ineffectively futile as they surely won’t give a damn about your personal view anyway? Perhaps you’re just misdirecting your frustration induced by being enslaved in a exploitive, oppressive & manipulative system. At the other end of your subjugation targeting us anarchists to wit with hurling your oral mud & eggs, just because, you’re anonymous so it’s safe, it cost little effort and it has at least some result, simply why we unlike the state, are patently decent enough not to ignore even your self-consumed opinion.
Well this so happens to be precisely the same reasoning as to why we wear hoods and go out under cover of the night to raise hell and make our voices heard by smashing up property that is ill protected.
So you see we aren’t that dissimilar in the end after all, and how could we be, seeing that we are all humans. The only difference being that we unfortunately dodge ordinance and run the risk of a maximum penalty of 10 years in jail, fighting for our ideals. While you on the other hand try to desperately prevent yourself from penetrating your cowardly fiber by misleading yourself that we are the ones bearing responsibility for your unsettlement, instead of correctly assessing anarchy as a consequential symptom of a basically sick social environment.
As for answering the question raised by your alias SIMON BADDELEY,
Dear professor; of course I don’t want to be as presumptuous to speak for everybody here, neither do I want to run ahead and claim a victory in a battle that is by long not fought.
Then if I am permitted to be as bold and spin my own vision on an anarchistic utopia in an imaginary tomorrow morrow land. .
First to begin with I dread that most of the duties you subject will forthwith become again one’s own responsibility in a post pyramid society. Though be consoled, given that anarchy implies the abolishment of centralized authority and the termination of large scale global corporations or if you will, a society delivered from coercive participation, there is still enough room for free collaboration. So it’s not quite unthinkable that one might congenially receive some help from a friendly anarchist neighbor to do some chore or what together. Howsoever inasmuch that parents will have to teach their children from early age on to disobey & resist theirs and any other’s authoritarian ruling. In the extension of this one & only mandatory house rule on planet earth, TV, & SCHOOLS, TEACHERS, but also law prescribing forms of religions and similar sorts of collective brainwashing instruments, these will inevitably cease to exist as well. Like taxes, prisons, prison guards, policemen, lawyers, armies, the weapon industry, politicians, and most of the business middle men, like for example, lobbyist, money changers, accountants bankers, real estate brokers, advertisers and yes process engineers too. They can all find some useful attribution to their lives, with limitless potential to apply their qualities to the fullest in this brave new world. For the rest of the submitted & foreseeable problems I suppose sustainable modern either classic technology will provide.
I hope this suffices to satisfy your inquiry concerning any ideas for the future, in which debate provided there is a will of course anyone is allowed to extemporize to bring constructive thought to the table. Yet bear to mind this is exclusively my own interpretation far out on a limb in all reserve positively speculating over a theoretical blueprint as an innovated design for a future society, which is as far as it concerns the now & here is alas not more or less than building idealistic dream castles in the clouds.
And to any of you out there who may disagree on my response, I am sorry but the way I see it a multilateral embargo would just reflect the disassociated inhumane tendency that we by definition morally denounce and I figure we must before sanctioning, first deplete all our means to reach an intelligible level of understanding even if that means to patiently invest in the deconstruction of criticism.
Besides I could afford myself the spare time and I concur patrioti Fontas it was fun too.
Police murdered a man Oakland-San Francisco’s BART system, riots erupt.
indybay.org
I really get the impression lately that the cops have moved to a higher level of surveillance. They’re killing everywhere, in ‘civilised states’ where you wouldn’t expect it. And that is without even mentioning the anarchist arrests in Iceland, Israel, France, Belgium, without proof or real charges.
Pieter, answer me please, why your webcam not working?
Hi all,
I believe Simon was displaying the world-renowned English wit in asking how the hell thse proposed theoretical anarchic systems would replace organised society as we know it.
Correct me if I am wrong of course!
The situation in Gaza right now is dragging on precisely because the IDF are doing everything possible to minimise casualties. If they did not care, they could wrap all this up (including destroying Hamas) within half a day, they have the means and the balls.
Comments welcome, shalom.
shalom your filthy ass, bastard
Now this is hilarious!
“I am a Capitalist with a soft anarchist centre and perhaps I am waiting for my turn. I can give examples of how I have made a difference to the companies I work for, and how I have improved society in my own little way.”
P.S:You didn’t improve society, you gave a service to some companies.
It’s part of your job, so don’t boast too much: you just make an ass of yourself.
Anyway, there is nothing personal against Varidakis:
I would tell the same to everybody deserving it.
Alexander, what the heck do you mean, a “webcam”?
Pieter, sorry, but i repeating:
http://mfile.akamai.com/61609/live/reflector:50061.asx?prop=e
Or its not being your video translation into Internet?
Fontas Varidakis You are faschistick bastard.
Anton,
I am an engineer and I improve society by giving good and economical solutions to – amongtst others – low income companies, non-profit charities, etc. When I make our solutions affordable to them, this is a service.
Compare and contrast with wanton destruction of property in Greece and elsewhere. That is not a service to anyone.
It all boils to a choice between creating and destroying.
What do you propose Anton, no employment? Who pays for you, so that these little electrons travel through cables so that you can post here? Do you work or do your parents pay for this?
Unless you get your internet connection from God of course.
Antifa again, I am not a fascist or anarchist or Alien or Mormon or Elvis, I am ME. Dig this into your empty skull.
I have fought (physically) with neo-nazis and know what scum they are.
Just because you do not understand something, do not try to fit it into your pre-conceived categories.
I am trying to open some kind of debate here, to understand what drives the so-called anarchists.
If you have anything valuable to say, say it or shut up and stop wasting electricity and oxygen. The whales need it more than you do.
Люблю людей, подмечающих всякие детали, мелочи и могущих в обыденных вещицах найти что-то привлекательное и незаметное для большинства. Супер!
There’s no such thing as “economical solutions”. Do you know for example what the “economical solution” to depression, hyperactivity, … is? Correct, pills. The sales of relatine, antidepressives,… have risen spectaculary in the latest decennium. Yet, suicide haven’t tempered down.
There’s one thing I find very easy to admit on capitalism: when it comes to production efficiency, it is the best system on earth. But it doesn’t serve mankind’s needs.
Pieter I agree with you on this 1000%. Man, you nailed it right there.
The best depiction I have seen of this is in Requiem for a Dream, where the mother is prescribed pills by her doctor and we see her going down frame by frame. Classic and very very chilling to watch.
Big pharma industry is probably only second to the weapons establishment in greed and ruthlessness. Oil & gas is nowhere near if you ask me.
I realy meant economical in the sense that they save some money to spend on other – perhaps more needed – projects. Yes, if you break it down we are all in this life for some profit…monetary or emotional. Who can change that?
Requiem for a Dream is surely a fantastic film.
Anyways, the point is, over here in belgium, if you aren’t active enough you get pills, if you are too active you get relatine, you feel down you get antidepressives, you can’t sleep you get pills. You get pills for everything, and the result is that people are incredibly pathetic.
However, these pills aren’t placebo’s for an unexisting problem. The pharma lobby could never sell antidepressives (which rarely work, and if they do, they turn life down to a vegetative state) without depressives. And those depressives are the fault of our economic and authoritarian system.
According to statistics, 7% loves their work. When I ask my dad wether he likes his (that’s right, I’m still in university), he says ‘it’s work’, and that’s it. One third of your day is spent on something you just have to do in order to make another third of it enjoyable (since one sleeps 8 hours a day). How do we fill these 8 hours of enjoyment nowadays? Tv-soaps (christ, they are horrible), reality tv, Second Life, … People have gotten so apathic that in the 8 hours that they are truly ‘free’, they watch or play another character’s life.
I don’t know if you know Kristof Kiezlowski or whatever his name is? He’s a polish moviemaker, who portrayed the lack of communication in modern society. We watch tv with our family, but are we watching WITH them, or are we simply in the same room? We mail, we make phonecalls, we build up internet relations with people we never met. When we leave our houses, we put an iPod in our ears, how’s that supposed to make one ’social’?
Capitalism has made us increasingly individualistic and egocentric (suprisingly? capitalism is all about personal gain, so I don’t think so). Liberty without socialism is slavery, bakunin already knew in the 19th century. They ought to make him the modern nostradamus, he correctly predicted the developments of his two greatest ideological adversaries, capitalism and state-communism, a century in advance.
Pieter your email is truly thought-provoking and adding to the eternal debate…what is the meaning of all this?
Of course I know Kieslowski, he is a cult figure in Greece and in many other countries. His films are as you describe great critiques on modern life and what it has become.
I highly recommend Dekalog, 10 short (ca. 40-60 min I believe) films that so beautifully destroy the illusion that the 10 commandments (and, by extension, Christian dogma) can applicable. In 10 short films, he destroys religious dogma in beautiful B&W cinematography.
His later Three Colours trilogy is also fantastic, although a lot more ‘refined’ and ‘Hollywood’ style. I prefer Dekalog, gritty and to the point like a bullet in the head.
I think about work just like you mentioned…do we really ‘enjoy’ it? But, are we supposed to enjoy it I wonder. If we get along without jumping out of a window, it’s success. If we genuinely enjoy it…well, that’s a major bonus
I think I enjoy my job…but ask me again tomorrow.
Pieter, please dont ignore my question about
http://mfile.akamai.com/61609/live/reflector:50061.asx?prop=e
Im still wait for question
Im still wait for answer
Small fix
Ah, okay, now I get what you’re aiming at, Alexander. Nah, it is not my webcam. Apparently, the guy who hosts it has taken it offline. Or the cops have confiscated it. Who knows.
Akrivos. I was being supercilious but – yes – I am concerned about government at its most basic. Who brings in the crops, who sows them, who… etc? In the mountains of Epirus in the the 1940s, before the Comintern apparatchniks took over with their ugly ways, there were liberating experiences as all – especially woman – participated for the first time in the government of their villages. Today, the trajectory and impetus required to escape the suffocating grip of turbo-capitalism must surely require strife and resistance, but what I, an elderly sceptic who’d done time resisting racism and injustice, seek, is shrewd analysis and articulate appreciations of how power works and reproduces itself. So far I’m not seeing that. We are all enraged by the ravages of casino capitalism, especially the way its beneficiaries have diminished the public domain. Old manufacturing capitalists have suffered from venture capitalism, and loath what’s happening and acknowledge the damage done to economies based on making things. Attacking the police looks and is ludicrous, especially when they’ve been so carefully primed to avoid confrontation, and when they generally belong to a class that’s more disadvantaged than many of those screaming ‘batsos’ at them. These people are not Elytis’ neo-condors and black shirts – a group of miniscule relevance today. All that happens is that individuals and small ‘gangs’ of police break rank and commit crimes out of frustration their actions disowned by their employers who will even occasionally arrest them as ‘enemies of democracy’. I asked about basics – of the kind those villagers experienced in the 1940s – because I so very much want to see signs of knowledge about how to govern – or self-govern – a complex society in alternative ways. The infrastructures of government have been comprehensively blighted by the enveloping values of neo-liberalism. One if its uglier achievements is to render those claiming to oppose it economically and politically illiterate. This sounds cruelly negative. I am speaking so strongly because I have been hoping to hear some example of Periclean rhetoric bearing a Socratic critique of the status quo – especially with the current paradigm reeling into recession. Instead the language being bandied about on this and other anarchist sites is tortuous and labyrinthine, almost perversely obscure (whether in English or Greek). I’ve been concerned with government at local level as participant and observer for years and I have few illusions about the way the prevailing understanding of how wealth is created has blighted the public realm (private affluence, public squalor – amplified a hundredfold in Africa, China and South America); how it’s seduced most of us into being ‘realistic’ about pursuing equity; made us conveniently cautious and self-censoring about righting evident wrongs. I and others, in our small local endeavours, have – repeatedly – steered clear of ‘partnerships’ (the fashionable device for taming and ‘involving’ the people at the bottom of the pile) but have also valued the application of intelligence and craft to the government of parishes, cities and countries. Where are the anarchist bookkeepers, beekeepers, agronomists, gardeners, electricians and bricklayers and street sweepers ….? I am hoping that in the halls of Greek universities such matters are the subject of lively debate.
Johnny…
It’s time to get off the bad drugs. Chech the expiry date before you smoke it next time.
- I have no alias, unlike you. I do not hide behind an alias. This is my real name and I can even provide you with my ID card number.
- I have no relation to Simon, wrong again.
- I have no relation to Elvis yet, before you ask.
You can speak and wrote for hours using grand words. You can wrote long essays. All this obvious talent then goes to waste when you dissipate the rest of your energy in doing what…breaking a few windows? fighting with the cops? And this somehow gives meaning to your existence?
Thanks for the links by the way, they are good.
Well then honorable professor, I think my apologies are fully in order, forasmuch the eloquent language formulating your latest post would make it obviously nearly improbable to have derived from Fontas Varidakis. I do hope to be excused if I may have aired somewhat condescending comments which weren’t in fact supposed to be directed at you personally.
Again SYGNOMI, I am truly sorry for the terribly huge blunder of mixing you up with another (quite deranged) person.
Anyway thanks for your welcome interest.
The issue of how to remodel society frequently comes along the board every so often as a sceptic ventilation by outsiders raised towards the anarchistic movement. Internally the movement is on itself divided, where syndicalist, (technocrats) contest primitivist (ecologists) solutions, and all the diverse standpoints that range in betwixt, regularly reappear on this forum as well universally. How such eventually might find it’s balance, naturally depends on an immensely incalculable number of unforeseeable factors hidden in the mist of what conditions the future may have in store for us tomorrow.
At any rate, the fact that the discussion is ongoing seems to indicate the commitment in anarchistic circles to make this world a better place and not like some unfounded voices suggest that anarchy is merely uncontrolled primitive rage against the machine of turbo capitalism.
In my response to your question I may have oversimplified my explanation how to reconfigure the collective prosperity, duties & values. Albeit let it be once more annotated, this being strictly my own simplistic utopian version. Generally I reckon we can all incontestably concede that the allocation of the congregational resources, labor & knowledge, that humanity can muster for whatever goal it sets it’s collective consciousness to, retains a formidable potency to achieve phenomenal results. I imagine once more & more people, come to discern the inevitability to rigorously replace this current antiquated system, for a more human modern approach and join in this debate. Then we might at some point see what you, we, and many silent sympathizers, faithfully anticipate to develop, a viable design for a sustainable contemporary human civilization.
In which the indiscretions of our flawed history, as nationalism, false religions, cultivated crime, manufactured wars, caused social disparity, etc. etc. will have become shames of the past.
Forasmuch I am able to infer, the anarchistic movement functions in this process merely as mediating catalyst, primarily epitomizing the basic principles to ascribe to this new global constitution for warranting the communal & individual concerns. Key objectives that I think any affiliated to the movement can unarguably agree on, are of course, the decentralization of authority, personal autonomy, equality, or more colloquially, freedom, independence & unity, (call it peace if you like). From there on I guess, it’s up to the great minds of humanity to construe a more detailed outlay in order to maintain these prestigious principal promises.
After all we are only the foot soldiers, yelling gourounia in the streets,. The battle may look hopelessly ridiculous in the spectacle circus of the mass media, the anarchist may be outnumbered, outgunned & undertrained, yet they’re only banging the drum to make as much noise as they can, and the impromptu arranged strategy to call on the public attention seems to have an effect. I believe and many with me are in consent that the Greek riots have awoken scores of people nationally & internationally and raised their hopes, by the display of a popular united front that does ideologically represent their personal value system, opposed to the old uniform norms of the mundane everyday life, that have traditionally simply served to keep in check the status quo of elitists, to the expense of the greater good of all. However if we are to bring about this radical change in the public opinion we are totally dependant on the moral, may it even be facilitating, support of respectable highly educated citizens like yourself. I for one am therefore honored, though you sounded a little sceptic, still I am not any less pleased over your taking interest and I hope for your continued involvement, specifically to the contrary of agnosticism, constructively taking part in the debate. Efgaristo
Glad to hear you liked it then. Sorry for the mix up. I should indeed cut down on splifs.
Maybe get myself a life. But then, .. uh, I am too stoned and creatively numb to think of anything other than breaking down stuff. I could of course write a book, but what should I write about? Admittedly, regrettably & patently my creative thinking suffers from the amount of perishing brain cells. Besides that it would take ages at my tempo.
Never mind, btw checked you out, so don’t worry I know you are a genuine person.
My name is Johnny Prodromous pleased to meet you.
“The world’s at war with tyrants, shall i crouch?” I’m not an alias for Fontas, though I concur with just about everything he says and especially respect his profession. I too can give you my name and address though I’m sure you have it already from my blog ‘democracystreet’ whose URL I always aim to leave. Thanks for respecting me with your ready reply Johnny B4 the Road. You’re up late, watchkeeper. I appreciate the possibility that I’m deranged. Indeed it sounds like a compliment given your feelings about sanity or worse, normality. I’m not ignorant of the history of Anglo-Hellenic relations. Our Lord Byron gave his life for Greek freedom – ‘The dead have been awakened – shall I sleep? The World’s at war with tyrants – shall I crouch?’ (19 June 1823) but see this extract from his journal, as he and his companions waited in Cephalonia, ten months before his death at Missolonghi in April:
As I did not come here to join a faction but a nation, and to deal with honest men and not with speculators or peculators, (charges bandied about daily by the Greeks of each other) it will require much circumspection to avoid the character of a partizan, and I perceive it to be the more difficult as I have already received invitations from more than one of the contending parties, always under the pretext that they are the ‘real Simon Pure’. After all, one should not despair, though all the foreigners that I have hitherto met with from amongst the Greeks are going or gone back disgusted. Whoever goes into Greece at present should do it as Mrs Fry went into Newgate – not in the expectation of meeting with any especial indication of existing probity, but in the hope that time and better treatment will reclaim the present burglarious and larcenous tendencies which have followed this General Gaol delivery. When the limbs of the Greeks are a little less stiff from the shackles of four centuries, they will not march so much ‘as if they had gyves on their legs’. At present the Chains are broken indeed; but the links are still clanking, and the Saturnalia is still too recent to have converted the Slave into a sober Citizen. The worst of them is that (to use a coarse but the only expression that will not fall short of the truth) they are such damned liars; there never was such an incapacity for veracity shown since Eve lived in Paradise. One of them found fault the other day with the English language, because it had so few shades of a Negative, whereas a Greek can so modify a ‘No’ to a ‘Yes’, and vice versa, by the slippery qualities of his language, that prevarication may be carried to any extent and still leave a loop-hole through which perjury may slip without being perceived. This was the Gentleman’s own talk, and is only to be doubted because in the words of the Syllogism ‘Now Epimenides was a Cretan’. But they may be mended by and bye. (28 Sept 1823 from Cephalonia)
It is one of the core characteristics of Philhellenic sentiment that Greece – classical and modern – is so much in our psychological DNA that we cannot easily separate that in us which is Greek and that which is British.
SIMON Thank you too for this almost poetical glimpse into your thoughts, “well spoken phile”, I might add as my regular cliche. At least I reckon we have you inspired. With god’s speed sir.
Varidakis, hello baby!
I have lots of friends in chania. The “incident” you are mentioning is a lie.
Probably your cretan friends are counting bravery by weighting their balls, as you also do.
So they made up this story to feel men again. You also like to call people you disagree with “sissies”.
Guess what: this is not even an insult for us. Plus there are also many women among us, so this is not an insult for them too. Search your vocabulary if you like to be more effective…
Anyway, if we ‘re talking about private properties like little shops, of course these were not harmed (or at least were strongly avoided). Not because of fear, bu just because we are not against these people.
Banks, multinational and other big companies were smashed and burned of course, all over greece. And this is not over yet…
Of course we use sms, internet and laser beams to blind the cops. Welcome to the 21rst century baby
Have to go now dear, a huge demonstration is awaiting for me in the center of athens today…
regards to everybody!
Hi guys,
To Nikolas: the ‘incident’ did happen, check your information. Perhaps these 3 guys were not from your circle, who cares really. I was trying to illustrate what might happen when you lose respect for others.
- Johnny, my respect for you increased immensely. You are also a genuine guy with a good brain on your shoulders and I wish you to remain active for as long as your head and legs sustain you. I also like your sarcastic, cutting wit….always a sign of intelligence in my book.
In general I like to play ‘devil’s advocate’ and stirr things up, but more to the point I was genuinely trying to understand the mentality of people like you. Like I mentioned earlier, I am not very different from you all in the end.
I am on the inside, I see corruption and inequality on a daily basis and first hand. Where I can, I intervene. Ideally, and if I have the balls, I would like to make a meaningful contribution to a better society.
I can do this much more effectively from the inside, if you get me. Think of the film The Usual Suspects. Going into direct confrontation against the system, especially by being part of an alternative system (‘anarchists’ in Greece) only leads to a dead-end.
I suggest concentrated and coordinated actions…contrast the immense (but quiet) ocean and a hydroelectric dam. Same volume of water in both cases, but the concentrated energy in the latter is more powerful.
Like Johnny rightly mentioned, this would have to be based – as a very minimum – on the decentralisation of authority and personal freedom and respect for others. Whether humanity is ready to abolish authority altogether…no way, we have not evolved that much yet and may never do.
To this effect, I have always admired the power of anarcho-syndicalism, and this is also by far the most effective force in Greece today (GSEE, etc.). Hijack the means and put a halt in the system rather than destroying it. Then you will always have the oppossition in your pocket.
Gotta go make some capital now
F
Simon,
Greetings. You have articulated your concerns in the most eloquent and relevant way, i.e. by reminding us all how the struggles of today and tomorrow are the same as the struggles of yesterday.
It never ceases to amaze me when I learn of, or come across, genuine Philellenes whose core is more ‘Hellenic’ than that of many of our citizens will ever be.
As you rightly pointed out, the influences in thought and far beyond (architecture, science, drama, etc.) of the ancients are all around one who walks the streets of London and any European polis.
It makes me proud more often than not to see that we modern Greeks have maintained a lot of the political nous of our forefathers…for better and for worse.
The Brits are worthy friends and adversaries for the Greeks and I am always amazed at how similar English humour is to the zany Cretan variety.
As to who is sane and who is crazy…well, normality is a concept of the majority so you can never win, and what is the point anyway?
Fontas,
“I can do this much more effectively from the inside, if you get me. Think of the film The Usual Suspects. Going into direct confrontation against the system, especially by being part of an alternative system (’anarchists’ in Greece) only leads to a dead-end.”
An alternative system is a dead end? You seem to forget that we are not anarchists because we dream of a ‘future society’, but because we try to bring it about right now. There are many anarchist communities out there, squats and legalised ones, there is the Tarnac village in France,… You should look beyond the destructive side of anarchism.
Ofcourse there is a destructive side. First we destroy, then we rebuild on a different basis. But our destruction is always constructive.
Frankly, you are looking at this from the wrong side. Anarchists in Greece had a sort of a safe haven in Exarchia. This was violated by the police murder. As a result, they took the streets and they destroyed. Was this meaningless, as you claim? I do not think so. From what I hear, the ranks of the anarchists have grown. Many people now support them (though it is true that many who despised them despise them even harder now, and that is still the majority). They have kept assemblies and proven they can have healty debates. They have distributed food and made a statement, and people followed it. Anarchism in Greece has gained ground out of this riotting. And in the end, that is were it all comes down to for us: gaining ground and support.
There’s a global urban guerilla going on out there, and we intend to win it.
Also, on a sidenote, are there really anarcho-syndicalist tendencies in Greece? We in the anarcho-syndicalist movement hadn’t noticed them yet, so if you have more information on it, care to share it? The only thing we see are popular assemblies, but that is part of any grassroot organisation, not just anarchosyndicalists.
Hi Pieter, very nice to hear from you again.
I agree that the system must first be destroyed before it is rebuilt, so we agree on the principle. However, what I do not agree with is the way this is done in Greece – opportunistic and not really focused on the real big daddies, rather it is focused on the safe targets (NTUA, the classic cause…banks, foreign business).
I would like to see the core of the state targeted more, then we can talk.
Unfortunately, ‘anarchists’ in Greece are what I call the ‘Camping Gaz’ variety. They plant a gas canister under some foreign diplomat’s car, it goes off and at most destroys the car and then they send their ‘manifesto’ to a local or national tv channel or radio station.
They do not dare target the big boys (e.g. ministries, ministers, MPs, etc.) because they do not have the balls. I am ready to take all the flak for saying this, but this is what I have experienced in 31 years of being on this planet.
Oh, and all this mainly while at uni, supported financially by their (often wealthy) parents or having a 9-5 job in mainstream society. So you see, this is more like teenage angst or a ‘phase’ until they grow up and realise that their parents will not pay for their frappe ad infinitum.
In reality, anarcho-syndicalism can be said to be present in Greece, albeit in a diluted (ideologically) form and expressed mainly through the GSEE (General Greek Workers’ Confederation) started off as very militant AFAIK. I am in no way an expert, but know that today GSEE have the power to bring the country to a standstil and often do so. I believe they are affiliated woth the ITUC.
In Greece, just as in France, the trade unions and the GSEE still command considerable power, unlike for example in the UK where the trade unions were effectively castrated in the 70s ans 80s.
This may be the soft side of anarcho-syndicalism to you, I can see this, but in Greece this is as good as it gets.
No Fontas I guess you weren’t at your sharpest when you reviewed the post today cause this time you absolutely failed to recognize, that I wasn’t kidding at all, but I was entirely serious and you had been right on all accounts. It surprises me though and I can only second guess you must had overdosed on alcohol & pharmaceuticals the night before so today you woke up dizzy unable to function at full mental capacity. In which consternation you as well missed out on penetrating the alias of Johnny Prodromous, with your usually sharp analytical psychology.
You know I am really King Elvis, but I reckoned you wouldn’t had believed me anyway.
Lighten up here’s another devil’s advocate joker to remind you of yourself:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqiPrRG5lNU
You seem to have little knowledge about the Greek anarchist movement. The “bombing”variant of them has very little influence. On top of that, bank managers are no less responsible than ministers. Capitalism and government go hand in hand. They are both “hard targets”. Or do you think groups like MacDonalds or Microsoft are powerless? Or Monsanto? Many companies are as strong as whole nations in terms of wealth and influence. It wasn’t the government that brough us the current crisis, it was the banks. The banks are the cause of Iceland’s bankruptcy. The banks and all these firms have an incredible power, and worst of all, they are not democratically oranised.
As for the GSEE, I fail to see any anarchist influences in them. Their whole structure is reformist. Anarchist syndicats are organised bottom up. The GSEE is not. Calling GSEE anarcho-syndicalist is an insult to the whole anarcho-syndicalist movement. CNT is anarchosyndicalist. FORA in Argentine is. Go check how they are organised, and then return to tell me GSEE is “anarchosyndicalist”.
When the riots broke out, GSEE sided the opposition parties and the reformists. Hence why its building was occupied. GSEE has no anarchist tendencies.
Hi Pieter,
I disagree about bank managers and politicians both being hard targets. A global bank can replace a burned out branch much more easily than a government can replace, say, a minister. Both guilty equally, but again the ‘anarchists’ choose the soft target of the two. N17 took good action and now they are out. Now we have the Camping Gaz groups to take their place? You must be joking.
Compare with Hamas if you like. They have the means to kill 100s of civilians in Israel, yet they keep back. They know full well that if they escalate, they will be wiped off the map by the far superior IDF. Same with these so-called ‘anarchists’, they attack and run because they know the game and play by the rules. In the end they watch their ass because they love life and are inherently selfish, just like you and I.
I believe last time the police entered the NTUA to make arrests on a big scale was in 1995, and they got more than 500 ‘anarchists’. I bet those kids were very surprised to see their holy asylum violated…
I did not call GSEE anarcho-syndicalist, just gave you an idea of syndicalism in Greece and this to me looks like a close but poor brother. In the end it is all political and everyone takes this or that side. Even within the anarchist circles, you ask 10 people and you get 10 answers.
Johny what a comeback! I am at work so cannot access Youtube or other such revolutionary media. I will hit it when I am home.
Tonight calls for the traditional end-of-week boozing to soothe the horror of my boring, Capitalistic existence.
How many windows will you penetrate tonight? Do you have targets, do you compete with comrades or just do it freestyle?
I got the Johhny b4 the road (Pro-dromos) btw, nice touch. I was referring to your capacity for arguing your beliefs, which I can see even at the end of the tunnel (your mile-long posts with long words). You have potential, although you speak and wrote too much and your message gets diluted and lost under lines and lines of text.
The reason I joined this merry blog was to get a few answers. I am still waiting to hear actual justification for the following:
- How can Anarchist A balance his/her ‘anarchic’ beliefs with living with parents, being supported by them, having a job, paid by an employer, etc.
- How can Pieter (for example, not personal) balance his ‘anarchic’ beliefs with attending university – surely a major instrument of authority and oppression, right? Further, who pays for tuition? If it’s parents – authority, you sold out. If it’s a government grant or loan, even worse.
- How can Anarchist A balance his ‘anarchic’ beliefs with doing national service in the army (in Greece it is compulsory) – surely the armed forces are yet another instrument of authority and oppression?
I am not joking, you should see how many ‘anarchists’ I met when I was in the navy. Oh yeah, they got into fights and preached all day long to anyone about authority this and authority that, but in the end kissed ass like the rest of us to get some holiday to go back to Mommy and Daddy.
In this sense I genuinely respect Jehova’s Witnesses, who in Greece will choose imprisonment rather than do national service and carry arms. That’s balls there, Camping Gaz folks.
What I am trying to say in all the above is that The king has no clothes…or rather, no balaklava. And by King I do not mean you Elvis/Johnny
I welcome answers, ANY ANSWERS, to the above from anyone. In plain English and with personal examples of how you (Johnny, G200, Pieter) carry out your anarchic existence. I am intrigued and I want to know.
Anyway, do what you do and break what you break…just do not claim some higher moral ideology because there is none. This crap sticks with impressionable 18 year olds but under the slightest scrutiny it collapses like the paper tower it is.
All in good jest
‘Your comment is awaiting moderation’
…
So this is an ‘anarchic’ blog with mods, impressive! Does anyone else see the irony in this?
You folks do learn fast
Fontas,
Care to explain to me why N17 would be the good type of anarchists? N17 were marxists. Marxism believes in a vanguard to lead the revolution, hence why it is always the Marxists that create groups like N17, RAF, Rote Brigades, Action Directe, …
Anarchist has not known such outbursts of personal terrorism since the 1890’s. Do you realise why? Such actions cost us the support of the masses back then, and it took us a long while to regain it.
There is a huge difference between terrorist attacks like N17’s and the riotting of the Greek anarchist block. These riots are supported by a big part of the community, otherwise they would not carry them out. These riots are not ment to simply destroy banks, or kill ministers, or whatever. That does not make a difference, all these things are replacable. That would be negative destruction. These riots are positive destruction. Their purpose lies not in the destruction, but in unifying the rage of the people towards a symbolic object. The main goal of the riots lies not in the broken windows, but in the growing people that participate in the breaking of windows, the growing numbers that talk to anarchists, that get informed about our ideas and in the end come over to our side.
Anarchism builds up within the shell of the old system. As it grows, it needs more space. In order to obtain space, it needs the police to respect their force, so that they can conquer certain safe places, like the asylums, squats, and Exarchia. These riots are in reality no more than that: a movement that needs more space.
If we can believe the reports, thousands of cops are right now on the streets of Athens to counter the demonstation forces. No state can keep such a situation for a long time. Either they will succeed in crushing the anarchist movement (but I only see it growing, so that is highly unlikely) or they will need to back down and hand over more ground.
Dear Pieter,
Thank you once more for adding valuable fuel to this fire. Yes, N17 was Marxist of course and not really anarchist, although in my mind the 2 are first cousins (Marxism as practised by N17 I mean). Also, you talk about popular support and N17 had massive support and tolerance until the end, both from the general public as well as from inside the police and also the political scene.
I was writing that I would like to see more direct action which aims to cripple, or at least heavily delay, the infrastructure of the system and its cronies.
Anarchist demos and riots will not achieve that; already we are seeing a backlash from the public in Greece, who for decades had tolerated these people as ‘hot-tempered’ (thermoaimoi) and ‘just kids venting’, etc.
I would like to add here that I repsect all of you, and this why I ‘push’ and ‘fight’ you. This is what respect means for me, to give my valuable time in order to open my mind. No doubt you all know the history of anarchism and the various groups and branches much better than I do.
I have certain questions that I would like to be answered please, and I will sincerely and gratefuly accept anyone’s opinion on these.
Pieter, if you want my opinion (as someone looking in from the outside), your movement should focus on launching and maintaining a PR or charm offensive to take the general public on your side. This must include concrete arguments for WHY the current system is not sustainable, but more importantly HOW your new proposed system would change the world for the better.
It’s OK to bash this system or the other but unless you give an alternative in terms that everyone can understand…you are just wasting your breath and your bricks.
Cheers,
F
it seems that when you put a link out, the moderation (censorship)time is considerably lengthened too Fontas, it just occur to me too.
Intriguing dont you think?
Yet I haven’t stumbled unto any cases in which my comments were moderated, so ease up, you haven’t scratched the bottom yet.
I advice to try cursing if you like to see how far you can go.
Johnny intriguing and highly worrying, I agree.
It reminds me of the old ’see if your email gets intercepted by the NSA’ trick: send 2 emails, from the same machine/server, of exactly the same length and content and to exactly the same destination. In one, include a buzz word which would be picked up by Echelon. Then marvel as the suspect email arrives at the common destination ever so slightly after the innocent one…
F
You are increasingly sounding more & more paranoid. Do you really believe in such myths as Echelon, I suppose you believe in aliens, ufo’s & Nibiru too. I would council a therapist if you feel like being watched cause these kinda of delusional phobia symptomatically depict there’s a screw loose up there. Hey wake up there’s nothing wrong with this world, it’s just you, having a mental breakdown.
See you later, have to go.
Hahahaha you start me up and then you go. You are just like all the women in my life
By the way I have tried the NSA email experiment and it is true, I saw that the suspect email arrived with a delay. I would NOT recommend to anyone doing this for obvious reasons. I was at uni then and not using my own machine, plus I could always claim insanity as you correctly stated.
Nibiru better not be true or I have to start enjoying my last 3 years…I still have not swam with dolphins for example, or had sex with a midget.
Have a good one man.
I would choose the latter, btw it’s according the professed arrival of Niburu, still approximately 4 years, so you can still add some items to your wish list. Good Luck
Thanks for the heartfelt wishes and please refer me to a genuine midget if you know one. Not hairy please.
I will also send you some juicy links when I get home, there is so much good stuff out there…
Fontas Varidakis How old are you???
How many hours per day you are watching TV??
Happy to see that at last there is some discussion going on. Even if there is a lot of commonplace nonsense written, it’s a start. Therefore, I see no reason for attacking Varidakis cause somehow he triggers a meaning making process in this blog. But of course if attacking him (not foolishly ironizing though..)keeps him writing and the rest thinking, keep on..
. Besides, being rather familiar with the greek anarchist community and just returning from a short stay in Greece, I have to admit that he has made some fair points. Sorry to spoil an emerging myth, but the situation there has little to do with what we would like to believe while reading these passionate reports. The self proclaimed anarchists leading the revolts are just a small group and most of them (so as to be honest with ourselves..) are ignorants or just trying to invest their otherwise constructed marginality with some “romantic” and idealistic value. Meanwhile, the on-going violence is felt by most of the people as some kind of terrorism. That’s to say, this only serves the present status quo and as a matter of fact this happens without any conspiracy to be necessary. Taking over Eksarhia has no meaning at all. Liberating minds should be the goal. And for this propaganda or counter-propaganda shouldn’t be the means if we’re to believe ourselves as anarchists. In my sense, anarchy is (in the bottom line) about liberating the subjectivities and therefore about encouraging people to find their own ways to experience individual and collective life beyond the capitalist and regulatory ones. Nonetheless, for convincing others that this is possible we have firstly to put it into concrete schemes while inviting the rest to participate to an ever-going process of liberation. Terrorising, excluding, segregating and giving the impression that it’s the game of a bunch of people (that are rather rejected by than rejecting the capitalist system) is just betraying and condamning our own ideals.. We don’t have to do with a revolution there so violence cannot be in any case justified..
At last a positive analysis from London = Prof Costas Douzinas.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/09/greece-riots
I like this man as he was among the very hard working British based lawyers, along with my friend Phil Shiner, Public Interest lawyers, who helped get a case for charging the PM Blair with war crimes. They lost in the end but it was bold venture. Douzinas ends his piece: ‘In the Greek case, antagonism resulted from the tension between the structured social body with its political representatives and groups, causes and interests radically excluded from the political order. Huge numbers of people cannot formulate their demands in the language of politics. The protesters do not say, “I want this or that” but simply, “Here we are, we stand against”. Not we claim this or that right, but we claim the “right to have rights”. They seem to be saying that, “We, the nobodies, the schoolkids, the suffering students, the unemployed, the generation that must survive on a salary of 600 euros, are everything.” The insurrection can be recognised as an event of radical change only retrospectively, if the rules of political recognition and participation are re-arranged. This depends on those who, after the end of the insurrection, will uphold the possibility of changing the rules of what counts as political. This is the challenge the Athens rising poses to Europe.’ Those of us far away wait on the moment.
Thanks Fontas for your generous words. I shall repeat them on DemocracyStreet. Simon
I hear ya phile, liked what you wrote made all the more sense to me, I myself have concurrently to your statements, repeatedly pronounced that the information war should be the revolution primary objective. In this we can all agree even Varidakis, insofar that taking the fight into the streets, can not be more then a symbolical contribution to our common goal to bring down the system. History has a long record of such acts of public disobedience, and as the record shows invariably, the success of past popular uprisings for regime change, necessitate the expansion of a broad based ideology attractive enough to sway the majority opinion. Nevertheless there is an undeniable PR value attached to what these according you, ignorant kids, have accomplished.
And what ever their motivations are for resisting even if that implies a certain puber romanticism, which is fine and not a whole lot from the truth, cause after all it does require enough courage to be out there and clash with the police and in such they could in fact be conceived modern day heroes . We, on our part, should however be thankful that they created for us the opportunity to find each other and converse in this kind of discourse, for after all Varidakis, me, you, most of people here wouldn’t have been here talking with each other, if it wasn’t for them. You gotta give them that.
As for Varidakis, well it’s a sad story actually, the guy who’s beginning to more & more sound like a broken record stuck in the recurrent rehearsal, of making allowances for his proportionally overpayed job under the feeble pretext that he’s trying to change the system from within. Well as you can read from all the various abovementioned statements that he posted, his mental stability may be in serious concern here. How we will ever get rid of him and if that is what this forum needs right now, I don’t know. What worries me is that he could become addictive, and our dependancy on good solid conversation might eventually be in his hands. Now we surrender to his unsurpassable gift to charm the masses with his elegant rhetorical speeches. But what will tomorrow bring with centralizing our ways to communicate in the hands of a capitalistic madman?
Hi SIMON i will check out your link asap, thanks.
Given the grim circumstances a quite positive note I concur. For the moment the situation is fluid, from what I hear today continuos street battles have raged throughout, the Athens Law & Business university, and the Polytechnic are surrounded by the cops and many comrades have been arrested.
As you can understand we anxiously worry about their faith, in order to set deterring examples the Greek jurisdictional system deals severe punishments to rioters caught on the scene.
All seems to indicate a hardening of the conflict gradually dragging Greece into the vortex of an ever accelerating unpredictable sequence of events.
Varidakis, due to the belated moderation time of your post in reaction to my engrossing editorial, I just got acquainted with your commentary that I must say was quite downgrading to my hour long commitment to have you sorted out. What do you mean,”your message gets diluted and lost under lines and lines of text”? Keep in mind the extended part to SIMON, I could had filed it separately but since in my comatosed state, I was under the impression you were one & the same, I so attached it as a whole. Minus that piece, plus take away the links I figure the elocution was not much more lengthened then SIMON’S essay. It ain’t that I am averse from criticism, but I am convinced still it hit a pretty solid point in just the right amount of words, in as many words of reversed psychology returning you the favor.
But okay I can see you are a though crowd and I will work on my deficiency of beating around the Bush.
Say which reminds me, did you like the link I send you?
Here’s looking @ U kid.
Well Fontas, seems like you’re moderated finally got through, but was overlooked due to the mass of responses :p
- How can Anarchist A balance his/her ‘anarchic’ beliefs with living with parents, being supported by them, having a job, paid by an employer, etc.
Anarchists living with their parents, well, I don’t think you’ll find a lot of ‘anarchists living with their parents’, as in people who have chosen the life under parental watch as their lifestyle. It is true that many youngster anarchists still live with their parents, but I don’t see why that would be a problem, it is what youngster do. Or do you suggest that as soon as someone becomes an anarchist (which could be around, say 12), he should leave home and parents behind?
On anarchism and jobs:
Certain jobs are ofcourse to be avoided. Anarchist cops, no way. You’ll never find real anarchists in the higher regions of a company neither I think. In general, I find that working man jobs, public service jobs (ofcourse not at the point where you’re working for the ministry of defence or something like that) and normal servant jobs in companies are acceptable. If possible, big multinationals like MacDonald’s, Microsoft and carcompanies are to be avoided, but for workingmen, the choice is rarely there. We have to make a living aswell, no?
What jobs are more than just acceptable, and even ‘good’ for an anarchist? Educating people is important, so journalism and teaching (as long as you put in your own ideas and don’t simply follow the government-layed-out schemes). Some anarchists live in communes. In Tarnac, they had a farm for most of their food, they opened up a grocery store, etcetera. Such small self-owned enterprises are cool too, I think. Fixing bikes, baking bread, selling 2ndhand CD’s,… as long as the purpose is to make a living and not to make tremendous ammounts of money out of it.
Many anarchists also combine a lot of little jobs. Some are unemployed. ‘Living of the system’ is the insult often thrown at them. But go think about it, in Greece, unemployment rates are incredible. Add to that the fact that anarchists often come into conflict with their employer’s because of working conditions, authority, etcetera. Add to that a criminal record because of particpation in direct action for some. Anarchists are highly likely to become unemployed one day. This doesn’t make them lazy farts, living of the system though. Most of them do search for jobs, so it’s not them that choose for unemployment, but the system that forced them into it, because they could not adapt.
Also, unemployment anarchists are far from lazy. Many are active in Food Distribution campaigns like Food Not Bombs, their squats are open to illegals and homeless, they spread their ideas, keep information evenings, engage in various struggles, ….
- How can Pieter (for example, not personal) balance his ‘anarchic’ beliefs with attending university – surely a major instrument of authority and oppression, right? Further, who pays for tuition? If it’s parents – authority, you sold out. If it’s a government grant or loan, even worse.
How do I balance my anarchist beliefs with attending university? Well, first of all, I think everybody has the right at education. Secondly, I do think university is less authoritarian then normal school. Atleast in my class, which is history. I have little real lessons, we are taught how to think critically, we have to make a lot of tasks on chosen subjects (which would be the Spanish Revolution) for me, I have a mass of books in the library on anarchism (though I believe these books should be available everywhere and not just there), …
I do not think the current education system is perfect. But it has it’s merits. An anarchist movement needs street-wise working men aswell as students. It needs the power of the youth combined with the experience of elderly. Nobody wants to go back to the point where education was only for the rich, and for none else.
- How can Anarchist A balance his ‘anarchic’ beliefs with doing national service in the army (in Greece it is compulsory) – surely the armed forces are yet another instrument of authority and oppression?
Who pays for it? My parents do, because the State forces them too. Education should be free for everyone. I am happy my parents offer me the chance. I try to waste as little as possible of the money they give me. In the long run, I intend to take on a job and squat some place in order to reduce the costs, but at this point, I can only be grateful for the support of my parents. But I will never tell them: “fuck off, I don’t wanna live of your money”. What’s the anarchism in refusing education whilst so many never get the chance? All the knowledge I get at school, I pass on to those who didn’t have the chance (contrary to capitalist students who keep their knowledge for themselves because they think it gives them an advantage). The only thing I had a catfight over with my parents was the class I would take. They wanted a class like economy that would ensure me a job. I wanted a class I would enjoy and one that would give me a lot of freedom.
-I am not joking, you should see how many ‘anarchists’ I met when I was in the navy. Oh yeah, they got into fights and preached all day long to anyone about authority this and authority that, but in the end kissed ass like the rest of us to get some holiday to go back to Mommy and Daddy.
In this sense I genuinely respect Jehova’s Witnesses, who in Greece will choose imprisonment rather than do national service and carry arms. That’s balls there, Camping Gaz folks.
If there’s no forced military service, any anarchist you find in such an army, at whatever echelon, is not an anarchist, but someone who thinks the words sounds very cool and tough.
If there is forced service, the natural anarchist approach is to avoid it. Which is what many is Israël do. When we had it still in Belgium, one could avoid it by working with an NGO like Medics without borders, which many did. But in many cases, it involves a lot of guts and a law-trespassing with serious consequences. Not any anarchist has tons of guts, and not anyone with guts is an anarchist. If the military service is force, I could agree with the choice. Though I’d still think it is wrong.
“Anyway, do what you do and break what you break…just do not claim some higher moral ideology because there is none. This crap sticks with impressionable 18 year olds but under the slightest scrutiny it collapses like the paper tower it is.”
I’m 18 (and I’ve been into anarchism for a couple of years). And there doesn’t pass a day in which I question my choice. So far, I have not seen any reason to alter it.
You may also find it interesting that atleast half of the anarchists I know are middle-aged folks of 30-40 years old. I bet the number would be higher if it weren’t for the fact that I’m in uni, and in uni, you necessairly meet youngsters, ofcourse
Not trying to claim here that most anarchists are older than 25 or something like that. But I think the most militant in Belgium are. I know something similar is happening in England, and the evolution is present in the US aswell. In Israel, for as far as I know, they are all mature groups. In Greece, for as far as I can observe, the movement is indeed quite young. But I doubt many of these youngsters will part with anarchism under the current economic and political circomstances, that only affirm their ideas.
Hello Pieter, you are quite an extraordinary kid. I myself fall in the category of older uneducated anarchists and everything I learned is practically autodidactic. At your age, I didn’t even had but a clue, ideals were foreign to me, and my social engagements then were virtually zero, not to say, that I probably was such an egotistical self-consumed capitalistic prick as Fontas, in duplicity fooled to worship the color of the almighty dollar. Think of green as in prohibited by law solutions. I sort of fell from the band-wagon into the fringes of society, when at your age, convinced that I felt an artist by heart, something that I later on proved in a variety of artistic expressions, and on several occasions the (lottery) of higher education through my solicitation for the art academy out of the window. Of course now I understand, what the Pink Floyd lyrics tried to tell me then, that school is nothing but a selective process to percolate the brave, willing & capable, with preference to grow non-thinking obedient followers. But I was, unlike you, disadvantaged far from getting the message. Instinctively, as I felt that creating art & making money were two separate hard to combine matters, in a world that obviously not was going to accept that I was the artist that I claimed to be, I started to fund my creative processes by illegal activities.
Of course life on itself is hypocrisy. Life is, yet it can’t be and so it is at all times a paradox.
In society the existence of the anarchist is not much different, as Varidakis so properly articulated, when scrutinized under a magnifying glass, no matter how one rolls the dice, one inevitably ends up a sour loser at the crap game of casino capitalism. We anarchists are anti & yet were in the same boat with all these brave subservient fellow citizens altogether rowing, the course, we particularly, don’t agree on. However you have to grasp that Varidakis, is out to expose these contradictions in order to gloss over his own complacency to do nothing about a system that he himself asserts as demoralizing, immoral & oppressive. And to retort these as stereotypical ammunition for getting on your nerves. You will sit hours for example to explain your point of view at best at you can and he will simply negate everything you said, only fixed to exploit some or the other weakness, commenting on totally irrelevant futilities, as “your message gets diluted and lost under lines and lines of text”. Whilst if you read back, his comments to the contrary are ever unthoughtful, unarticulated, incoherent, unintellectual, rashly formulated and completly lacking any flow.
Please take that into your consideration the next time. Greeting Johnny.
“Petje af vrind, jij bent echt een bijzonder exemplaar”
Urbano, I totally disagree that an urban military approach would cut the movement from a wider popular base, since it would actually have the opposite effect, to make the anarchist movement even more attractive in the eyes of the ordinary people out there, and to give them a good reason to join the fight.
I noticed that the insurrectional movement has a large support within the population in Greece, as in many other countries, but the lack of a serious organization to not just defend themselves against the State repression but to carry out strong attack against it is keeping them away from “drafting” into a larger social war; so it leads us to have a movement of marginal insurrectional groups who will never go any further than doing that “guerilla spectacle” and thus fueling further repression and Big Brother-like tactics from the State. If there is a problem of vanguard elitism, it is not to emerge from an armed struggle movement. Actually, you can see it these days, with the organizing of the most coherent direct actions being carried out by closed affinity groups and the rest of protesters not being able to organize more than general actions, consisting mainly of more-or-less peaceful demos where the cops are never really taken care of.
We have to understand such a military organization as something that will most probably not attack the State through conventional means, as most of the war made by the capitalists upon the masses is of a “passive” and permanent nature, putting in place and maintaining a large-scale propaganda machine and multiple devices of policing and social control (that are not yet so overwhelming here in Greece as they are in most place of the Western world), as a huge weaponry of psychological warfare over the population. Obviously this machinery they brought forward can and must be brought down systematically, and this is one of the reasons why of such an armed force is necessary.
And the other main reasons would be:
- You cannot wage war against a dominant armed force (the capitalist State in this case) without an army, or any form of highly coordinated military organization, such a brigade, or popular guard. The insurrection of December have met their political reality, that they didn’t have the coherent organization needed to reach its goals. Moreover, the goal of this insurrection was somewhat unclear, aside from asserting their collective might into bringing retribution for the crimes of the capitalists, and the conditions of victory were apparently absent from the minds of most insurgents. A military organization, being in a logic of war which aims at a total victory over the enemy, has to have clear goals for achieving such victory, at least in a given chain of events, that is related to a more global strategy such as bringing down an entire system or making it largely dysfunctional. If it’s to bring down the capitalist system once and for all -something that surely can’t be done within just a few weeks, months and even years, unless some huge global catastrophe helps in the process- concrete efforts have to be made to ensure the material conditions of victory, such as to provide ways for the insurgents, the fighters as we could call them, to sustain themselves (which was surprisingly absent during the riots, aside from squatting buildings), and to defend themselves against foreign forces such as the police and reactionary groups.
- Before having weapons, even primitive things such as sticks, people need to know how to use them, and how to coordinate on the spot into making a battle successful. Only through training this can be achieve. Only through training people can learn how to fight or scare cops, make formations and develop ways to communicate effectively through codes. This iis who they can have the DISCIPLINE required to become a real threat to any occupational force such as the police. And sorry to be harsh, but a bunch of drunk Alpha Kappa machos is not sufficient to take down the police forces in a demo, just as in an entire city. They’ll give them the chills for some time, even hurt a few, but eventually the cops will only grow bigger and more equipped in the face of people who don’t organize seriously.
- In a war logic, you try to avoid attacking enemies where they are at their strongest, so participation to demos should be left to the leftists and students who seem to like being gassed and run away to safe places. Before they attack demos, the cops are usually at their weakest, unsuspecting and unsuspicious of any threat which could come from the passers-by. They do not fear anything coming from the ordinary so this is from the perspective of the ordinary that they can be taken down, but it is only through a network of groups and individuals who are all following the same set of martial codes, practices and goals that such attacks can come from ordinary life, and that ordinary people, at the same time, can rely upon such network to defend themselves against government repression.
- The whole concept of “resistance” is baseless, and gets eventually meaningless, without bringing forward ways to go on the offensive. Resistance cannot sustain itself by being solely, or even mostly, defensive, since it will always bring us down on the dangerous path of self-victimization. It has to be an offensive, a savage shift of roles between the oppressed and the oppressor. The Greek people, as do the people in most countries in the world, have a capacity to become the aggressors and to stop waiting to get attacked by cops in demos to thrown things at them. Many groups already carry out aggressive actions against key points of the State, but most of these actions are elitist in nature and thus not let the tens of thousands of angry people out there to take part in any offensive by themselves… Provide them with food and protection, and you can bring up any form of social order (or disorder), so Machiavelli said. These things are the within the main logistic concerns of any military organization or network. If the troops have no shelter, food and ways to protect themselves, they are eventually doomed, no matter how revolutionary they are, and this is why so many people will stick to the dominant system in times of crisis… Not because they are too brainwashed or lazy; because they’ve got no better options!
- A popular army of sort has the potential to overwhelm any form of State armed force, at least by the numbers, if not with added technological support such as home-made or more conventional weaponry and shielding. As I explained above, armed struggle is not just about getting guns and shooting bastards, although it might get to this point in some advanced state of the insurgency. The ruling capitalist elite has become dependent upon a huge infrastructure of economic flux, social control and propaganda that can be somewhat easily attacked extensively without fearing direct repercussions from above. If such an insurgent force does not have the guns and tanks to smash the State out in the open -which would be completely demented on a strategic perspective at such a precarious state in the struggle-
Aside from just disconnecting from the capitalist system, that logically implies leaving these crappy big cities it has created and try to built a libertarian-communistic way of life in the countryside, and hopefully redefine their relation with Nature, I don’t see how it is possible to bring a social revolution without the use of an insurrectional force attacking the oppressors and their system from below. Enlighten me, please, since I don’t see any other concrete solution to the problem. A “permanent revolution”, consisting of such a defensive and exclusive insurrectional movement such as the anarchist networks are in Western countries does not seem to be an answer, since it has already shown its failure to protect the people against the takeover of their lives by a police State and corporate propaganda. A coordinated and extensive offensive is perhaps all what we need to get stronger, gain more concrete support and eventually throw down capitalism down the drain with all its parasites, but the so-called radicals have to wake up and stop playing the role of the victim in this big game. Let’s become their oppressor, damn it, so that they will fear us so much that they will be weakened!
To gain the support of elements within the current dominant military machine is, indeed, a must, but remember that, unlike the civil army that we call the “Police”, soldiers and even officers are actually just ordinary people, who mostly come from the same proletariat that the rioters come from, and are not trained an brainwashed to intervene into domestic scenarios and wage war upon the people like the cops do. Especially in a country like Greece, a large part of the army’s work force could actually turn quite easily in favor of an insurgency movement (which would be the end of the police) if that would happen and there are no short-term measures that the government can take to prevent against that.
The only way out of this mess is through confrontation with authorities. You have my word for it… there are countries where activists have so much run away or either resorted to peaceful, civilized action that now it has become an orwellian nightmare. I lived in some of these places and could say that many Greek radicals would have preferred to commit suicide rather than to live in such oppressive forms of social peace. And this could be where Greece is going if things just keep going down so peacefully. Mark my words.
Urbano, I totally disagree that an urban military approach would cut the movement from a wider popular base, since it would actually have the opposite effect, to make the anarchist movement even more attractive in the eyes of the ordinary people out there, and to give them a good reason to join the fight.
I noticed that the insurrectional movement has a large support within the population in Greece, as in many other countries, but the lack of a serious organization to not just defend themselves against the State repression but to carry out strong attack against it is keeping them away from “drafting” into a larger social war; so it leads us to have a movement of marginal insurrectional groups who will never go any further than doing that “guerilla spectacle” and thus fueling further repression and Big Brother-like tactics from the State. If there is a problem of vanguard elitism, it is not to emerge from an armed struggle movement. Actually, you can see it these days, with the organizing of the most coherent direct actions being carried out by closed affinity groups and the rest of protesters not being able to organize more than general actions, consisting mainly of more-or-less peaceful demos where the cops are never really taken care of.
We have to understand such a military organization as something that will most probably not attack the State through conventional means, as most of the war made by the capitalists upon the masses is of a “passive” and permanent nature, putting in place and maintaining a large-scale propaganda machine and multiple devices of policing and social control (that are not yet so overwhelming here in Greece as they are in most place of the Western world), as a huge weaponry of psychological warfare over the population. Obviously this machinery they brought forward can and must be brought down systematically, and this is one of the reasons why of such an armed force is necessary.
And the other main reasons would be:
- You cannot wage war against a dominant armed force (the capitalist State in this case) without an army, or any form of highly coordinated military organization, such a brigade, or popular guard. The insurrection of December have met their political reality, that they didn’t have the coherent organization needed to reach its goals. Moreover, the goal of this insurrection was somewhat unclear, aside from asserting their collective might into bringing retribution for the crimes of the capitalists, and the conditions of victory were apparently absent from the minds of most insurgents. A military organization, being in a logic of war which aims at a total victory over the enemy, has to have clear goals for achieving such victory, at least in a given chain of events, that is related to a more global strategy such as bringing down an entire system or making it largely dysfunctional. If it’s to bring down the capitalist system once and for all -something that surely can’t be done within just a few weeks, months and even years, unless some huge global catastrophe helps in the process- concrete efforts have to be made to ensure the material conditions of victory, such as to provide ways for the insurgents, the fighters as we could call them, to sustain themselves (which was surprisingly absent during the riots, aside from squatting buildings), and to defend themselves against foreign forces such as the police and reactionary groups.
- Before having weapons, even primitive things such as sticks, people need to know how to use them, and how to coordinate on the spot into making a battle successful. Only through training this can be achieve. Only through training people can learn how to fight or scare cops, make formations and develop ways to communicate effectively through codes. This iis who they can have the DISCIPLINE required to become a real threat to any occupational force such as the police. And sorry to be harsh, but a bunch of drunk Alpha Kappa machos is not sufficient to take down the police forces in a demo, just as in an entire city. They’ll give them the chills for some time, even hurt a few, but eventually the cops will only grow bigger and more equipped in the face of people who don’t organize seriously.
- In a war logic, you try to avoid attacking enemies where they are at their strongest, so participation to demos should be left to the leftists and students who seem to like being gassed and run away to safe places. Before they attack demos, the cops are usually at their weakest, unsuspecting and unsuspicious of any threat which could come from the passers-by. They do not fear anything coming from the ordinary so this is from the perspective of the ordinary that they can be taken down, but it is only through a network of groups and individuals who are all following the same set of martial codes, practices and goals that such attacks can come from ordinary life, and that ordinary people, at the same time, can rely upon such network to defend themselves against government repression.
- The whole concept of “resistance” is baseless, and gets eventually meaningless, without bringing forward ways to go on the offensive. Resistance cannot sustain itself by being solely, or even mostly, defensive, since it will always bring us down on the dangerous path of self-victimization. It has to be an offensive, a savage shift of roles between the oppressed and the oppressor. The Greek people, as do the people in most countries in the world, have a capacity to become the aggressors and to stop waiting to get attacked by cops in demos to thrown things at them. Many groups already carry out aggressive actions against key points of the State, but most of these actions are elitist in nature and thus not let the tens of thousands of angry people out there to take part in any offensive by themselves… Provide them with food and protection, and you can bring up any form of social order (or disorder), so Machiavelli said. These things are the within the main logistic concerns of any military organization or network. If the troops have no shelter, food and ways to protect themselves, they are eventually doomed, no matter how revolutionary they are, and this is why so many people will stick to the dominant system in times of crisis… Not because they are too brainwashed or lazy; because they’ve got no better options!
- A popular army of sort has the potential to overwhelm any form of State armed force, at least by the numbers, if not with added technological support such as home-made or more conventional weaponry and shielding. As I explained above, armed struggle is not just about getting guns and shooting bastards, although it might get to this point in some advanced state of the insurgency. The ruling capitalist elite has become dependent upon a huge infrastructure of economic flux, social control and propaganda that can be somewhat easily attacked extensively without fearing direct repercussions from above. If such an insurgent force does not have the guns and tanks to smash the State out in the open -which would be completely demented on a strategic perspective at such a precarious state in the struggle- they can carry out a multitude of tactics against the machine that keeps running.
Aside from just disconnecting from the capitalist system, that logically implies leaving these crappy big cities it has created and try to built a libertarian-communistic way of life in the countryside, and hopefully redefine their relation with Nature, I don’t see how it is possible to bring a social revolution without the use of an insurrectional force attacking the oppressors and their system from below. Enlighten me, please, since I don’t see any other concrete solution to the problem. A “permanent revolution”, consisting of such a defensive and exclusive insurrectional movement such as the anarchist networks are in Western countries does not seem to be an answer, since it has already shown its failure to protect the people against the takeover of their lives by a police State and corporate propaganda. A coordinated and extensive offensive is perhaps all what we need to get stronger, gain more concrete support and eventually throw down capitalism down the drain with all its parasites, but the so-called radicals have to wake up and stop playing the role of the victim in this big game. Let’s become their oppressor, damn it, so that they will fear us so much that they will be weakened!
To gain the support of elements within the current dominant military machine is, indeed, a must, but remember that, unlike the civil army that we call the “Police”, soldiers and even officers are actually just ordinary people, who mostly come from the same proletariat that the rioters come from, and are not trained an brainwashed to intervene into domestic scenarios and wage war upon the people like the cops do. Especially in a country like Greece, a large part of the army’s work force could actually turn quite easily in favor of an insurgency movement (which would be the end of the police) if that would happen and there are no short-term measures that the government can take to prevent against that.
The only way out of this mess is through confrontation with authorities. You have my word for it… there are countries where activists have so much run away or either resorted to peaceful, civilized action that now it has become an orwellian nightmare. I lived in some of these places and could say that many Greek radicals would have preferred to commit suicide rather than to live in such oppressive forms of social peace. And this could be where Greece is going if things just keep going down so peacefully. Mark my words.
P.S. “Inclusive democracy”??? LOL! You guys are just gonna get screwed by yet another reformist ploy for alienated imbeciles. You wanna change things? Organize, damnit!
What a massive avalance of ideas! Thank you all – Johnny, Pieter, Simon, Nomad, Chatnoir – for contributing your time and energy in stimulating this dialogue and contributing to our common understanding.
I will not insult any of you (es. Johnny, who has the lowest tolerance threshold haha) by writing something on the go but will try to think of something meaningful to add on the morrow, after I am sober.
People like you really give me hope for a future better from the current reality of production -> consumption -> wastage -> death.
I am off to a date with a Capitalist lady; hope to score some base carnal marks there!
Adios to all and never stop dreaming
Sounds promising, but don’t get wrapped up to dilute your message under lines & lines of text.
Yet now you make esteemed promises, to hurry off & indulge yourself in the decadent corporal satisfactions of liquor, snort & women, but I wonder if you will still respect us in the morning?
Fontas Varidakis assuredly you’re probably all weekend now, scribbling notes, & recording your ideas on audio memos, researching with tabs open on Wikipedia, Thesaurus dictionary, and what not, breaking your mind over how to still regain some dignity with something beautiful to say. You’re probably looking for grand harmonious words to solidify an intelligent perspective, that intertwines a multifaceted vision, circumscribing historic, present day & future, references to assay a carefully balanced presentation in not too many words, serious enough not to embarrass yourself once again, yet adventuresome enough to capture the audience’s imagination and poignant enough to incite for responses. Let’s face it the immense task you set yourself to with a deadline on the end of the weekend, maybe a mission impossible with the creative indigence that hallmarks your livelihood. Of course you remain always welcome to scramble some Periclean or Platonic, be it all the same Socratic, Greek wisdom unto the podium and lash out to impress the people on this board once again with a demagogical sneering speech to expose the imperfectness of democracy and thereby boost the growing popularity amongst your loyal followers, as PIETER, SIMON, ANTIFA, NICHOLAS, ANTON, NOMAD WORLD, CHATNOIR, & URBANO. Awe-inspiring in the apotheosis philosophically exhuming your end quotation from the ancient thinkers to address the vanity of life, by citing “mateotis, mateotiton, to pan mateotis”(in vain, vainness, all’s in vain), then accolade to receive their applause, leaving them dumbfounded over your incomprehensible juggling with the lot, to come out pointless anyway.
But I myself unfortunately lacking the imaginativeness to envision how one should manage such a persuasive treatment, well, honestly I don’t see it happening, then if against all odds you should carry through and upload another one of your deranged post, I am probably not gonna buy it anyhow. Simply because I prefer to see myself as an independent thinker, I don’t go with the pack, I am way out there way ahead of the bourgeois ways, cutting through unchartered territories, discovering new paths, and in the wake of my slipstream the road on which you walk is being constructed.
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[...] by webabuser on January 6, 2009 It seems definitely so. Read here. [...]
[...] It is greatly believed that whoever fired those shots against the cops, is not from inside the movement, since an act like this can only harm it. “Was the riot cop shooting orchestrated by the state?” read it here: http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/2009/01/05/was-the-riot-cop-shooting-orchestrated-by-the-state/ [...]
[...] It is greatly believed that whoever fired those shots against the cops, is not from inside the movement, since an act like this can only harm it. “Was the riot cop shooting orchestrated by the state?” read it here: http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/2009/01/05/was-the-riot-cop-shooting-orchestrated-by-the-state/ [...]
[...] After the Greek Riots › “Was the riot cop shooting orchest… [...]
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